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Battle of Bellewaarde Update

 
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 18:25    Onderwerp: Battle of Bellewaarde Update Reageer met quote

Hi, I Just thought that you might like to know!

The Battle of Bellewaarde website has just been updated with new information:
1 x 23rd November and 12 items 23rd December

When you access the site please press the F5 key at the top of your keyboard to refresh the computers cache memory, then go to the ‘Updates’ link at the bottom of the page. Wink

Also, please leave feedback either on the site at ‘Guestbook’ at bottom of page or on this site.

I hope you enjoy viewing

www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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Finnbar
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 18:53    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

First impression: awesome!

kerstman
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 19:22    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

thumbs up
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 19:23    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

thumbs up
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 19:28    Onderwerp: Bellewaarde Update Reageer met quote

Hi Finnbar and Binske007
Many thanks for your words, they will indeed be remembered

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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Red Roses



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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 19:37    Onderwerp: Re: Battle of Bellewaarde Update Reageer met quote

On first impressions, couldn't agree more with Finnbar.
Thumbs up for a piece of thoughtful & very deeply researched piece of work.
Promise to be back with you shortly with a more in-depth reply.
Wish you an all-British Xmas Smile meanwhile: stuffed turkey, Xmas trifle, Queen's address, Blackadder goeds 4th Rolling Eyes and finally a Truce poppy worth remembering.
poppy poppy

martinclift @ 23 Dec 2011 18:25 schreef:
Hi, I Just thought that you might like to know!

The Battle of Bellewaarde website has just been updated with new information:
1 x 23rd November and 12 items 23rd December

When you access the site please press the F5 key at the top of your keyboard to refresh the computers cache memory, then go to the ‘Updates’ link at the bottom of the page. Wink

Also, please leave feedback either on the site at ‘Guestbook’ at bottom of page or on this site.

I hope you enjoy viewing

www.bellewaarde1915.co.uk

Martin

_________________
'Meine gute Mutter, (...) seid ohne Sorge: ich trage die Fahne,
habt mich lieb: Ich trage die Fahne' (R.M.Rilke)
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Finnbar
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 20:58    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Discovered a short article about the site in a well known Belgian magazine

http://www.knack.be/opinie/blogs/site-van-de-dag/de-slag-van-bellewaarde/opinie-1195039229881.htm#

It's a very positive review, by the way Smile poppy

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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 21:18    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Hey Martin, I'm not sure whatsoever, but is Bellewaerde not a more correct naming (instead of Bellewaarde)?
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 21:28    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Hi Finnbar
I'm flattered! That translates very well doesn't it, shame the tin hats photo is from a later date, they didn't have them at this stage on the western front. You can't have it all, especially when the critics are being kind! Very Happy

Bellewaarde is the spelling from the majority of regiments, some spell it as Bellewarde and others Bellewaerde, so I went with the majorty vote.

Martin
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 21:32    Onderwerp: Re: Battle of Bellewaarde Update Reageer met quote

Thanks Red Roses, apreciate the words.

As for the festive season, I'm going to call it off as there is no 'Great Escape' to watch and to make matters worse no 'African Queen' either. tut!

Kind regards and a Happy Christmas to you and yours

Martin
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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 22:06    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Very nice website! Obviously made with a lot of knowledge, passion and dedication. Cheers to you and your colleagues, martinclift! poppy

Gr P
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martinclift



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BerichtGeplaatst: 23 Dec 2011 23:32    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Many thanks Gr P

Martin
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In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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BerichtGeplaatst: 24 Dec 2011 14:01    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Indeed every time I've encountered a reference so far, the spelling (the old Flemish and also French one) of that hot spot was 'Bellewaerde'. Continues to be a windly corner at times today, quite popular with kids as it is actually.

Am I right in thinking (as I heard several times before that the grounds of B were never "deep-dug" as we have it, meaning that the depth at which it was dug was not, as was wont to be done, the customary two spades deep.

From someone who should / might be in the know I once learnt that when deep digging for the fun park was done they found a Marks Five tank inderneath the present foundantions of Bellewaerde's major landmark, the (awe-inspiring) "Piratos". Money as a rule having its way it turned out such that no one ever bothered at any time to eeven consider unearthing it or having that done.

Anyway, one never knows the old-bones guys might enjoy the young folk having their time of their lives on top of their own brittle remains. I, for one, think they actually do.

Finnbar @ 23 Dec 2011 21:18 schreef:
Hey Martin, I'm not sure whatsoever, but is Bellewaerde not a more correct naming (instead of Bellewaarde)?

_________________
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habt mich lieb: Ich trage die Fahne' (R.M.Rilke)
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Red Roses



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BerichtGeplaatst: 24 Dec 2011 14:13    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

You can say that again!
Merry Xmas to you!

Pegoud @ 23 Dec 2011 22:06 schreef:
Very nice website! Obviously made with a lot of knowledge, passion and dedication. Cheers to you and your colleagues, martinclift! poppy

Gr P

_________________
'Meine gute Mutter, (...) seid ohne Sorge: ich trage die Fahne,
habt mich lieb: Ich trage die Fahne' (R.M.Rilke)
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 24 Dec 2011 20:40    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Hi Red Roses.

Many thanks for the comments regarding the site, I appreciate them all.

The comments about the depth of the trenches is an interesting one. The diaries and regimental histories I have read and also those pals with a lot more knowledge than me state that many British trenches at Bellewaarde were less than a metre deep, it would appear that they were dug whilst under shell fire and therefore the troops were just glad to get below the parapet.
The German trenches however, were a real piece of engineering and when the British took them they were amazed at the good workmanship and would be happy to stay there as long as they could.

The whole area, excluding the fun park, as far as I can find out, has been excavated once and apparently not much of interest was found. I find that very strange as shells and bullets and barbed wire still surfaces from time to time.

I think that my Great Uncle, who died that day would think that he died for liberty and the freedom to live as one would wish. I think you are right, he would be pleased that people visit the site to enjoy themselves. He was only 19 when he died (17 when he joined the army) and missed the pleasures we all take very much for granted. Enjoy life, but remember those who ensured you had the freedom to do so!

Kind regards

Martin

Merry Christmas
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In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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pifilsofimos



Geregistreerd op: 10-9-2007
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BerichtGeplaatst: 25 Dec 2011 10:57    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Your reference to Patrick Fitzsimmons of the 2nd RIR brings back the discussion on the 'John Condon' issue. I never understood why the CWGC refused to confirm the error made by allowing a DNA-testing. Probably they were afraid of a precedent. Or they were put under pressure by the Condon family not to do so. Can you tell me what source you used for that part of the story of the 16th of June ?
If this very plausible theory is correct, it means that John Condon must somehow still be in the soil near Mouse trap farm.
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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 11:53    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Hi Martin

Do you think I would be right in supposing that your Great Uncle's remains were never retrieved from the battlefield. I am going from that asumption knowing that Bellewaerde Ridge, as well as Hooge, Hill 62 (Mt Sorrell) and, e.g. Railway Wood, Hellfire Corner, the present Perth-China Wall cemetery, &tc., were particularly notorious 'windy corners' all through the war.

Or would I be wrong, and did he find a proper burial place after all? Also, would you or your relatives be still in possession of biographical information on him, such as the way he spent his youth, the circumstances in which he enlisted, the regt. and btn. he served in, the actions and operations he participated in and the conditions in which he personally perished.

I ask you this as, with the Friends of the Ypres Museum, we do regularly delve into such particulars with a view to considering the possibility of setting up some form of formal Remembrance. These Remembrances are part of what one might consider to be our core business as an organisation.

Season's Greetings!
RR

martinclift @ 24 Dec 2011 20:40 schreef:
Hi Red Roses.

Many thanks for the comments regarding the site, I appreciate them all.

The comments about the depth of the trenches is an interesting one. The diaries and regimental histories I have read and also those pals with a lot more knowledge than me state that many British trenches at Bellewaarde were less than a metre deep, it would appear that they were dug whilst under shell fire and therefore the troops were just glad to get below the parapet.
The German trenches however, were a real piece of engineering and when the British took them they were amazed at the good workmanship and would be happy to stay there as long as they could.

The whole area, excluding the fun park, as far as I can find out, has been excavated once and apparently not much of interest was found. I find that very strange as shells and bullets and barbed wire still surfaces from time to time.

I think that my Great Uncle, who died that day would think that he died for liberty and the freedom to live as one would wish. I think you are right, he would be pleased that people visit the site to enjoy themselves. He was only 19 when he died (17 when he joined the army) and missed the pleasures we all take very much for granted. Enjoy life, but remember those who ensured you had the freedom to do so!

Kind regards

Martin

Merry Christmas

_________________
'Meine gute Mutter, (...) seid ohne Sorge: ich trage die Fahne,
habt mich lieb: Ich trage die Fahne' (R.M.Rilke)
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 12:29    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

pifilsofimos @ 25 Dec 2011 9:57 schreef:
Your reference to Patrick Fitzsimmons of the 2nd RIR brings back the discussion on the 'John Condon' issue. I never understood why the CWGC refused to confirm the error made by allowing a DNA-testing. Probably they were afraid of a precedent. Or they were put under pressure by the Condon family not to do so. Can you tell me what source you used for that part of the story of the 16th of June ?
If this very plausible theory is correct, it means that John Condon must somehow still be in the soil near Mouse trap farm.


Hi pifilsofimos
I picked this information up from a chap who had created a site which detailed work on Pte. Condon. He stated that I can lift what I liked and reuse it, which I did, however, going back to the site for source information just before adding Fitzsimmons to my site, I found his site to have been deleted. Apparently you can find his work on the CWGC site (I think he was/is associated with them.
If you do find out where he is could you let me know so that I can give him credit for his work?
Reading the above it sounds as though I do not have permission, but I can assure you that it is correct. I know the work he had done was embroiled in a dispute with a Gentleman from Belgium and I think it got a little nasty!

Kind regards

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 12:40    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Hi RR
Thank you for your interest in my Great Uncle.

Austin Frank Broughton of 1st Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers was killed in action on 16th June 1915. I can only guess that he perished just east of Railway Wood. At roll call he was reported as wounded, however that changed to missing.
I have put some detail my website, but I can let you have as much as I know, which isn't so much about him, but a large amount about the family. The image you see on my site is the only photograph we have of him, but there are many more of other members of the family.

Can you email me at info@bellewaarde1915.co.uk after reading his details on the site and let me know if you require more, I can then mail direct to you.

Kind regards and Seasons Greetings to you

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 13:19    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

martinclift @ 26 Dec 2011 11:29 schreef:
pifilsofimos @ 25 Dec 2011 9:57 schreef:
Your reference to Patrick Fitzsimmons of the 2nd RIR brings back the discussion on the 'John Condon' issue. I never understood why the CWGC refused to confirm the error made by allowing a DNA-testing. Probably they were afraid of a precedent. Or they were put under pressure by the Condon family not to do so. Can you tell me what source you used for that part of the story of the 16th of June ?
If this very plausible theory is correct, it means that John Condon must somehow still be in the soil near Mouse trap farm.


Hi pifilsofimos
I picked this information up from a chap who had created a site which detailed work on Pte. Condon. He stated that I can lift what I liked and reuse it, which I did, however, going back to the site for source information just before adding Fitzsimmons to my site, I found his site to have been deleted. Apparently you can find his work on the CWGC site (I think he was/is associated with them.
If you do find out where he is could you let me know so that I can give him credit for his work?
Reading the above it sounds as though I do not have permission, but I can assure you that it is correct. I know the work he had done was embroiled in a dispute with a Gentleman from Belgium and I think it got a little nasty!

Kind regards

Martin


I have checked the information regarding Condon and Fitzsimmons on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Condon_(British_Army_soldier)
I hope this helps

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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Aurel Sercu



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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 14:02    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

martinclift @ 26 Dec 2011 12:29 schreef:
pifilsofimos @ 25 Dec 2011 9:57 schreef:

If this very plausible theory is correct, it means that John Condon must somehow still be in the soil near Mouse trap farm.


Hi pifilsofimos
I picked this information up from a chap who had created a site which detailed work on Pte. Condon. He stated that I can lift what I liked and reuse it, which I did, however, going back to the site for source information just before adding Fitzsimmons to my site, I found his site to have been deleted. Apparently you can find his work on the CWGC site (I think he was/is associated with them.
If you do find out where he is could you let me know so that I can give him credit for his work?
Reading the above it sounds as though I do not have permission, but I can assure you that it is correct. I know the work he had done was embroiled in a dispute with a Gentleman from Belgium and I think it got a little nasty!
Kind regards
Martin


Hi Martin and Pifilsofimos,

I am the "gentleman" Martin referred to, and the chap he mentioned in his first line probably is the one whose name I'd rather not mention, as it leaves a very foul taste in my mouth after he stole my research, in spite of our gentlemen's agreement. (And the initials CWGC he uses or used for his website have nothing to do with ... CWGC as we know it.)

I mentioned the case of betrayal of trust on my (no longer updated) website.
http://www.mausershooters.org/diggers/N/Ezine/2003/JohnCondon.htm
(Dutch and Flemish)
It's not that I want to reopen the case - I have tried to leave it behind me for years - but should someone be interested...

Condon family may have exerted some sort of pressure ? I don't know. All I know is that after physical threats that I received ftrom the Condon family, I felt it necessary to contact the local police here. Since then : quiet on the Condon family front.

P.,

Where are John Condon's remains ? Certainly not beneath the headstone which bears his name, which has the remains of Patrick Fitzsimmons.
His remains are either still near Mouse Trap Farm, or - and there is an approx. 50 % chance - must be one of the thousands of "A Soldier of the Great War" graves in the area.

Aurel
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 15:16    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Hi Aurel
Thanks for the post, it explains things better than I can without using names.
By the way, thanks for the email!

Kind regards

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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BerichtGeplaatst: 26 Dec 2011 15:25    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

A few pals and I are thinking of making the trip to Bellewaarde on or around 16th June 2012. It seems strange that after putting so much into my website about Bellewaarde I haven't even been there.
I was hoping to be the first of my family to visit where my Great Uncle fell but, I have been pipped to the post by Austin's Great Grandnephew last week.
Anyway, if anyone wishes to join ust on this trip please let me know through Facebook > Martin Clift and I will then transfer you to the Bellewaarde page.

Kind regards

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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Red Roses



Geregistreerd op: 13-11-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 27 Dec 2011 19:57    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

Please keep me posted if / when you do hop over. If things can work out, we might have a meet & greet somewhere near to or on the spot (Ypres, Hooge, Tyne Cot,...). Would just love to share feelings, reflections and impressions. Provided you like the idea, at any rate!
Best, from Bruges!

RR

martinclift @ 26 Dec 2011 15:25 schreef:
A few pals and I are thinking of making the trip to Bellewaarde on or around 16th June 2012. It seems strange that after putting so much into my website about Bellewaarde I haven't even been there.
I was hoping to be the first of my family to visit where my Great Uncle fell but, I have been pipped to the post by Austin's Great Grandnephew last week.
Anyway, if anyone wishes to join ust on this trip please let me know through Facebook > Martin Clift and I will then transfer you to the Bellewaarde page.

Kind regards

Martin

_________________
'Meine gute Mutter, (...) seid ohne Sorge: ich trage die Fahne,
habt mich lieb: Ich trage die Fahne' (R.M.Rilke)
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martinclift



Geregistreerd op: 22-6-2011
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BerichtGeplaatst: 27 Dec 2011 22:36    Onderwerp: Reageer met quote

You are on my list of 'Keep informed'

Hope to see you then!
Kind regards

Martin
_________________
In Memory of L / Korporaal 3555 Austin Frank Broughton 'W' Coy. 1e Bn., Northumberland Fusiliers. Overleden 19-jarige leeftijd op Bellewaarde 16 juni 1915
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